About the map

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When mapping the area please keep the original name PIETRABUONA for the village that many refer as Peterbona, a.s.o.
Is an old mistake like Arcola for Arcole, Tannenburg for Tannenberg.

Ciao Kevin

Enrico Acerbi
DoA (Defender of Austria)

[kzucker]

Ciao Enrico,

We will try to keep those mistakes to a minimum. Probably I will use an Italian source map, so no worries. In the past, English-speaking map makers thought it was fine to "Translate" the place names. My favorite one is "Leghorn" (which is a breed of chicken) instead of Livorno.

[Edgar]

Or Vittoria for Vitoria

[lanterna]

Ciao Enrico,

My favorite one is "Leghorn" (which is a breed of chicken) instead of Livorno.
Hi Kevin.
However Leghorn is correct, chickens apart.
It was the British name of Livorno (a Royal Navy coal supply like Genua-Genoa - Genova).
Beware of old Italian maps. Some of those were Sardinian maps (French speaking people). In one you can read Pederbona too.
The village (contrada) of Pietrabuona was so named for a cave (it translates as "fine stone") of stones used to pave (correct?) roads; an italian mastepiece job also in the Nap's time.


P.S. Any interests on WW1 games? I have some ideas on the Italian (mountain) Front; and many came directly from yours "logistics' sight".

[kzucker]

Hi.

Any topic outside of Napoleonics is, we have found, difficult to get the necessary pre-orders. I am aware of the interest in Valdagno for these mountain campaigns of WWI. I too have travelled around there with Massignani a little.

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Hi
here an old french map with the name "Pedrabona" which could be correct in the old slang ... on French-Piedmontese (Pierrebonne) or the Spanish corrupted Pedrabuena. Kevin you're the Referee now!
http://www.histofig.com/history/empire/batailles/images/marengo_2.jpg

Situation of "l'armée autrichienne en Italie" at 20 march 1799

High Commander : Général Kray and after, Général Mélas
Staff Commander : colonel Zach


In the military camp near Legnano (called Massy Camp) 10.409 men
and ....

Division Mercantin : 14 992 men Brigade Klenau
Hussar Régiment Wurmser (8 sqn.) 1404 horses
Light Infantry Régiment n° 3 Am-Ende (1 bataillon) 766 men
Light Infantry Régiment n° 4 Bach (1 bataillon) 820 men
"Grenz" Frontier Régiment Szluiner (1 bataillon) 1181 men
(Jomini called the Regiment as Slainer but it isn't correct)
"Grenz" Frontier Régiment Banat (1 bataillon) 1050 men
Frontier Regiments were all but poor. Stout men with high morale!
Brigade Mitrowsky (or Mittrovsky ... the bohemian Mitrowitz)
Rifle Régiment Wartensleben (3 bataillons) 3 002 men
Rifle Régiment Preiss (3 bataillons) 2186 men

Garnison de Legnano : 4583 men
Rifle Régiment Lattermann (3 bataillons)
Rifle Régiment Fürstemberg (3rd bataillon)
Rifle Hungarian Régiment Gyulay (3rd bataillon)

At Bevilacqua : 12958 men

Division Frölich : 12958 h (ad interim commanded by Lusignan) Brigade Lusignan
Rifle Régiment Thurn (3 bataillons) 1350 men
Rifle Régiment Reisky (3 bataillons) 2428 men
Rifle Régiment Nadasty (3 bataillons) 3241 men
Grenadier Brigade Lattermann
Grenadier Bataillon Mercantin 752 men
Grenadier Bataillon Fiquelmont 754 men
Grenadier Bataillon Weber 783 men
Hungarian Grenadier Bataillon (?) 779 men
Grenadier Bataillon Neny 388 men
Brigade Doller
Dragon Régiment Levender (6 sqn.) 1162 horses
7th Hussar Eégiment (8 sqn.) 1320 horses


At Pastrengo camp : 8534 men

Division Keim : 15857 men
Brigade Elsnitz
5th Hussar Régiment (8 sqn.) 1404 horses
"Chasseurs" or Jäger Planck (2 bataillons) 1147 men
"Grenz" Frontier Régiment n° 3 Oguliner (1 bataillon) 1245 men
"Grenz" Frontier Régiment (n° 5 or 6 - Croat) Warasdiner (1 bataillon) 1174 men Brigade Gottesheim
Rifle Régiment Jordis (2 bataillons) 1714 men
Croat Rifle Régiment Graf Jellachich (2 bataillons) 1850 men

In Verona : 7323 men
Brigade Minkowitz
48th Rifle Hungarian Régiment (2 bataillons) 1482 men
Rifle Regiment Wilhem Schröder (3 bataillons) 2271 men
Grenadier Bataillon Gers 467 men.
Verona's Garrison
Rifle Régiment Jordis (3rd bataillon) 846 men
Rifle Croat Régiment Jellachich (3rd bataillon) 909 men
48th Hungarian Rifle Régiment (3rd bataillon) 721 men
Planck Jäger (Chasseurs) 327 men

South of Verona : 8084 men
Division Kray : 12247 men (ad interim commanded by Graf [Earl] Hohenzollern) Brigade Morzin
Rifle Régiment Samuel Gyulay (2 bataillons) 2087 men
Rifle Régiment Mitrowsky (3 bataillons) 3032 men
Brigade Hohenzollern
Light Dragons Regiment Karaczay (6 sqn.) 1085 horses
Light Dragons Regiment Lobkowitz (6 sqn.) 1014 horses

At Arcole : 4163 men
Brigade Liptay
Rifle Régiment Fürstenberg (2 bataillons) 1856 men
Rifle Régiment Klebeck (3 bataillons) 2307 men

Reserves joining the Austrian "armée" 14578 men

Division Zoph : 10062 men
Brigade Saint Julien (detached in Tyrol)
Rifle Hungarian Régiment Anton Esterházy (3 bataillons) 2877 men
Rifle Régiment Alvinczy (3 bataillons) 2502 men
Rifle Régiment Huff (3 bataillons) 2849 men
Brigade Kovachewitsch (or Kovacevic)
"Grenz" Frontier Régiment 4th Banat (1 bataillon) 905 men
Grenz" Frontier Régiment 6th Banat (1 bataillon) 929 men

Division Ott : 4516 men
Brigade Seckendorf
Hussar Régiment Erzherzog (Archduke) Joseph (8 sqn.) 1424 horses
Imperial Dragon Régiment (8 sqn.) 1015 horses
Dragon Régiment Württenberg (6 sqn.) 1114 horses
Cuirassiers Régiment Kavanagh (6 sqn.) 963 horses

Various Detachments: 12 489 men
Venezia's Garrison
Rifle Régiment Stuart (3 bataillons) 2540 men
Rifle Régiment Keuhl (3 bataillons) 2660 men

Trieste's Garrison
Rifle Régiment Belgioioso (3 bataillons) 2000 men


In Kärnten (Carinthia)
"Grenz" Frontier Régiment n° 1 Licaner (pronounced Lizzaner) (1 bataillon) 1173 men
"Grenz" Frontier Régiment n° 3 Oguliner (1 bataillon) 1023 men
"Grenz" Frontier Régiment Banat (1 bataillon) 1030 men

Treviso's Garrison
Bussy Jägers zu Pferd (Chasseurs a Cheval) (8 sqn.) 1300 men

No infos about the Palmanova's Garrison.

Summary :
On the Adige's Front : 57021 men
Reserve approaching: 14578 men
Garrison Troops: 12489 men
Global Total 84088 men

Apart are 2000 artillery's men and the Wukassowitsch (Vukassovic) Brigade (about 7000 men of the Army of Tyrol) which had to meet the main Army in Brescia. In the case of invasion of the Tirolean borders they could also gather about 10000 Militia men (Tiroler Landesschützen).

The Imperial Austrian Army (10 Jäger coys, 63 battalions, 34 squadrons), had, from the first March's days, more than 60000 troopers of which 6000 were cavalry, divided into 5 divisions and deployed between rivers Tagliamento (eastwards) and Adige.

An other Corps formed with 24 battalions and 26 squadrons (about 25000 men of which 5700 were cavalry) was deployed in Carinthia, in Croatia and in Dalmatia. So you can estimate the whole austrian force able to reach Italy in 84000 soldiers. *


Every austrian infantry battalion was equipped with 2 field cannon pieces. The whole Army Park had (in addition) 173 guns (various calibre). At least in Palmanova was gathered an artillery park of 80 heavy siege guns. ready to enter the campaign.

* A mémorandum from général Chasteler told of 94.000 men comprising Friuli and Venice Garrisons.

Source : Jomini ; Histoire critique et militaire des guerres de la Révolution ; to IV ; Bruxelles ; 1842.

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Organisation of "l'Armée d'Italie" on 30 march 1799.
Higher Command: général Schérer

Left wing under the direct Command of the Commander in Chief SchérerDivision Sérrurier
Cmd: Général de brigade Meyer
ADC: Adjudants-généraux Garreau, Guillet and Becker
18th Half (Demi) Light Brigade 1967 men
29th Half (Demi) Line Brigade 1400 men
30th Half (Demi) Line Brigade 1950 men
2 Grenadiers Coys 180 men
Cavalry: 850 horses - Light Artillery: 60 men Total : 7347 men

Division d'avant-garde (Front Guard) : Delmas
Cmdrs: Généraux de brigade Grandjean and Dalesme
ADC: Adjudant-généraux Gastine and Préval
26th Half (Demi) Line Brigade 1600 men
31st Half (Demi) Line Brigade 1736 men
93rd Half (Demi) Line Brigade 1850 men
Grenadiers 600 men
Cavalry 1800 horses- Light Artillery: 120 men Total : 7706 men

Left Division : Grenier
Cmdrs: Généraux de brigade Quesnel, Ristrr and Wilourssky
ADC: Adjudant-généraux Compans and Partournaux
17th Half (Demi) Light Brigade 1483 men
24th Half (Demi) Line Brigade 1800 men
106th Half (Demi) Line Brigade 1920 men
1nd Polish Legion 800 men
2nd Swiss (Switzerland's - Helvetia) Legion 800 men
Cavalry 450 horses - Light Artillery: 120 men Total : 7373 men
Total of the Left Wing : 22426 men

The Center, commanded by General of Division Moreau
Center : Victor
Cmdrs: Généraux de brigade : Pigeon and Chamberlac
ADC: Adjudants généraux Argod and Blondeau
56th Half (Demi) Line Brigade 1900 men
92nd Half (Demi) Line Brigade 1870 men
99th Half (Demi) Line Brigade 1800 men
1st Swiss Legion 800 men
2nd Polish Legion 700 men
Cavalry 1 000 horses - Light Artillery 120 men Total : 8190 men

Reserve : Hatry
Cmd: Général de brigade Frésia
ADC: Adjudant généraux Charpentier and Solignac
21st Half (Demi) Line Brigade 900 men
33rd Half (Demi) Line Brigade 1900 men
63rd Half (Demi) Line Brigade 1700 men
3rd Half (Demi) Piedmontese Brigade 900 men
Cavalry 800 horses - Light Artillery 60 men - Total : 6260 men
Center Total: 14450 men

Right Wing, under command of General of Division Montrichard
Right Division: Montrichard
Cmdrs: Généraux de brigade Vignes and Gardannes
ADC: Adjudants généraux Puthod and Latache
5th Half (Demi) Line Brigade 1940 men
14th Half (Demi) Line Brigade 1950 men
3rd Half (Demi) Line Brigade 1000 men
45th Half (Demi) Line Brigade 1800 men
Polish Troops 453 men
Cavalry 1900 horses - Light Artillery 120 men - Total : 9490 men

Total of the "Armée sur l'Adige" : 46366 men




In Valtellina :Bde Dessolles
ADC: Adjudant général Fressinet12th Half (Demi) Light Brigade 2000 men
39th Half (Demi) Line Brigade 2 000 men
Expeditionary Detachment 500 men
Cisalpin Troopers 200 men
Cavalry 48 horses - Artillery and Sappers 343 men -Total : 5091 men

Toscana: Brigade Gauthier
Cmdrs: Généraux de brigade : Miollis and Vignoles
ADC: Adjudants généraux Touret and Franceschi
16th Half (Demi) Light Brigade 900 men
3rd Half (Demi) Line Brigade 1000 men
21st Half (Demi) Line Brigade 1000 men
1st Half (Demi) Piedmontese Brigade 1240 men
1st Half (Demi) Cisalpine Brigade 1500 men
Cavalry 700 horses - Artillery 60 men -

Total of active forces : 57857 men
DetachedCorps
Lombardia :Foissac and Sainte Suzanne
In Mantova (Mantua) 2415 men
In Milano (Milan) 1250 men
Various camps: 5912 men
Cavalry Dépots 1200 horses Total : 10777 men
Piemonte (Piedmont) :Grouchy, Clausel, Motte
In Torino (Turin) 2934 men
In Alessandria (Alexandrie) 1422 men
In Vercelli 2700 men
Various camps 2391 men
Liguria :Lapoype, commander of Ligurian Troops
In Genova (Genua) 4819 men

Summary :
Active Army of Italy: 57857 men
Cisalpine Division 10777 men
Piedmontese Division 9447 men
Ligurian (Genoese) Division 4819 h
Total of Army of Italy: 82900 men

The Neapolitan Army had 33900 men comprising Ancona's and Rome's Garrisons.Global Total 116800 men

In those forces are not counted soldiers of the Garrison's battalions, which were green troops not battle-trained. They were about 16000 men for the Army of Italy and 6000 for the Neapolitan Army. The 4000 Ligurians weren't fit to enter campaign too. Not all the French troops (of the whole number - 116000) were fit for the battles agaonst austrians. The Neapolitan Army (30000 men) had to control their Kingdom. 23 battalions of green soldiers short of weapons and untrained had only order to guard towns in Piedmont and Lombardy (Cisalpine Republic too) helped by the Cavalry Depots scattered on land. The truly operative part of the Army of Italy was formed by only 57800 trained soldiers. The Gauthier Division must be subtracted from this number because it was sent in Tuscany for occupation's duties; in the same way we cannot consider also the Dessolles Brigade, travelling from Swiss Grigioni to the Valtelline, moving from the Army of Switzerland (Army of the Danube) to the Army of Italy.At least the first impact French troops, able to fight an Austrian army on the Adige, were about 46000 soldier, 7000 of which were cavalry.
Source : Jomini ; Histoire critique et militaire des guerres de la Révolution ; to IV ; Bruxelles ; 1842.

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Hi
Sorry for this E-bombardment but Marengo is exciting for me. I called the Municipio della Città di Alessandria (civil Government). They assured that the true name was (at those times) Cascina Pederbona.
The Piedmontese-Lumbard Cascina was not a village but a walled farm.
I have a link to explain what I'm saying.

http://www.parcoaddasud.lombardia.it/piccoli/vivere/img/cascina.gif

Whenever any help wanted please tell me.

Hi Enrico

[kzucker]

Hi Enrico,

Do you think the armies organization changed a lot between 1799 and 1800?

[lanterna]

Let see if I understand your question. If you mean Orders of Battle (I can send you an XLS file if you need) I could tell that in June 1800 there were important changes (the French organized a new Reserve Army to rescue Massena in Genua also if Bonaparte let him starve there preferring the occupation of Milano). However Austria was an unchangeable slow machine ever acting with some "art of improvisation"; a military world in which lower commanders made the job good or bad (a question of morale and initiative).
Otherwisw if you mean strategy & tactics at Marengo (as in 1799) we had two opposite armies with some analogies:
- lack of organisation in the Chain of Command (No relevance of Corps commanders or Column - to say it in Austrian); division commander with one brigade force (and one brigade commander to quarrel with);
- poor intelligence (use Vedettes): poor Higher Command (don't be astonished but Bonaparte really had a minor profile at Marengo, a battle which he turned in a personal important mediatic victory ... after).
- Army' Forces strengt had the same number of men while in June 1800 no regular French artilleries were probably able to reach the Army in time for the battle.
Lack of cannons was balanced by revolutionary Elan. Actual Memoirs often refer of French troops advancing with sound Chants causing nervousness into the enemy ranks.

The final problem: were we have to put Supply Wagons? While Bonaparte traced supply from Milano where was the Melas' Main Depot ? Genua ? Nah.

Sorry. Written in hurry. We can get more depth in the matter.
Hi Enrico

[kzucker]

The Austrians depot was in Alessandria; hence the battle of Marengo was fought near there.

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OK well and they had the road Novi Ligure - Tuscany open I presume. But how many other Depots they lost until June 1800 ?

Otherwise returning to the map I'm concerned on what ideas have you about map scale ... 480 NLB meters or higher?
Wht not try an innovative Marengo Campaign (two maps one mile per hex scale with Marengo eastwards and Montebello-Casteggio westwards with Austrian hurrying to find French before Army of Reserve total gathering and French looking for Austrian Depot trying to cut the Lines OC. Austrian Heer with classic Chain of Command and Armée with free subordinate Leaders Initiative checks). It could be historically correct I think and the game would be innovative and funny (searching with Vedettes where they are!).
What do you think about ?

Hi Enrico

[kzucker]

Well, they had lost Milan of course. A two map game is not possible for this project, we cannot change that. The other problem is that Napoleon knew the battle would be fought in the plain of he Scrivia, one month beforehand. He knew they would appear there to defend Alessandria.

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When the poor Gardanne was under siege into the Alessandria's Citadel (Northern bank of the river May-July 1799) and gave up to general Bellegarde after a long bombardment, Melas thought that the Citadel had to be organized to resist to a long Siege. So he created a Depot but not for the Army while for the Defenders sieged (food, water and supplies - non more that that). So Alessandria was not able to supply an Army of 25000-30000 men.

http://linux01.lgnet.it/pda/arc_doc/siti/cittadella/immagini/cittadella11.jpg

The road to Novi and Genua was important. Napoleon was stunned by the new of Massena's capitulation thinking he could had been resisting more days to general Ott. The high number of ill soldiers (infectious diseases) in Genoa, famine and other nuts caused the need to leave there about 10.000 Austrians as Garrison.
Most historian think the Bonaparte flagging San Giuliano on the Map telling "the battle will occur here" is a tale (I told you about the mediatic job on Marengo). Actually Nap thought that Melas had to leave Alessandria probably for a retreat to Liguria (the sea) and was overcome by surprise with the news of the Austrian passing the bridges (intact!).
He gave "malaprop" orders to Lapoype and Desaix to march far away from the (supposed) field of the battle then changing his confused mind during the battle.
He had the time to recall Desaix, probably not the other general. The Desaix' going-back march was very slow (5 hours against a 2 hour move with quick footing).
Finally the demoralized First Consul had two "Coup de Fortune" (two lucky chances):
1 - Desaix deployed in front of an over confident enemy commanded by the CoS Zach (Melas returned to Alessandria announcing the victory); the Austrian supposed that the new French lines were covering the friendly troops "en Route" behind them and advanced creating a large gap between infantry and scattered imperial cavalry far behind; a large French Grand Battery (probably 15-18 pieces) opened fire from the flanking height (suddenly battered down by the overwhelming Austrian guns) and
2 - Kellermann filled the gap charging and routing the Austrian infantry.
Melas was so surprised a so left alone by his Staff that he gave up in the next day without any attempt of resistence (Siege in Alessandria).

For this I tell that Alessandria was all but a reasonable Depot.
This is the current summarized account of the battle (by European historians) and not what Bonaparte boasted in Paris (the "promoted" Kellermann was very angry by the matter).

What do you think about it?

Hi Enrico