Follow-up Titles in this series

[kzucker]

(A reminder: we will be playing 4 Lost Battles at the Gameparlor in Woodbridge VA tomorrow from 11-5 or so... we've made an enlarged set of maps... come out and see it!)

I received the following email from Olivier. I hope he does not object to my posting it here...

> Mr Zucker, Well, i got your last game "4 lost battles" and only wish to tell you that it is a very nice surprise...i enjoy this game a lot..bravo...! Now i only have a couple of questions...first would you take the "napoleon last battles" games and upgrade it with all the new rules...? i suspect it could be a good thing... and my other question is about design...as you have designed a "4 lost battles games".... don't you think it could be smart to design a "4 won battles games" taking battles of the 1814 french campaign!!!i guess here you would have a winner...and something never done before in the wargaming world...at least in this way..and there are really interesting and challenging battles. my last thing is that it is with your design (napoleon last battles) thet i have one of my very best "souvenir" when back in 1981 i was in england learning english, and i was in an english family (near liverpool) and i bought this game and started to play it with the boys of the family....you will never imagine how tense theses games were played....me, as the french player and my fellow playing wellington...that was THE game...with of course waterloo as the battlefield....i remember that i lost twice.... and won once...it was like the end of the world...or a final in any kind of world championship...incredible...simply. thank you very much for these wonderful design..

Dear Olivier,

To receive a letter like yours from time to time makes it all worthwhile...
Which four battles of 1814 would you propose?

We have received many proposals for a follow-up to 4LB. Suggestions so far include:

a) Bautzen: 29" x 32" map.
b) Reprint of Naps Last Battles: A customer wrote as follows
>I think a De Luxe version could be appreciated : in my opinion it's a
>classic and it would reserve such a treatment. All the production by OSG are
>not only excellent from an historical and gaming point of view but also as
>to visuals and graphics. To tell the truth I am really unsatisfied with the
>graphics from both published versions...Idea: why don't you set a poll about
>that in your website?

c) Four Battles of the French Revolutionary Wars (1794)

d) Smolensk campaign- Inkovo (the Russian advance), Krasnoe (Murat's Advanced Guard attacks Neverovski), Smolensk (16-17 August), Valutina (Murat & Ney vs. Eugen's rearguard).

e) Marengo Campaign- Suchet at Acqui (failed attempt to cut off the Austrian retreat from Nice); Murat at Piacenza (Murat seizes the defile of Stradella); Lannes' at Montebello (brilliant victory over a superior Austrian force, June 9th); Marengo (June 14th).

f) The Dvina, 1812
Polotsk is interesting in several respects: there were two battles on more-or-less the same field. The first in August -- where Gouvion St. Cyr wins his baton in an open field engagement while old Bavarian General Deroy receives his mortal wound. Terrain includes a major river, an important stream in a deep valley, a major town, lots of woods, some ponds. The second round is in October with the French under a rather inept Oudinot; this time the French are defending a bridgehead and have to execute a difficult withdrawal across the Dvina (blazing town, falling shot, confusion in the falling autumn darkness, tough Swiss fending off the Russians) while the outnumbered Wrede holds off a Russian advance on the French side of the river. Can everyone cross the bridges? The "French" in both cases are II Corps (mix of Swiss, Franco- Dutch, Croatians, others) and VI Corps (Bavarians), along with some additional heavy and light cavalry (including Marbot's 23rd Chasseurs).

g) Four Battles of 1814
h) Pultusk/Golymin
i) Heilsberg/Friedland
j) Austerlitz.
k) 1805 Battles: Hollabrünn, Dürrenstein, etc.

I would like to propose ONE of these as a follow-up to 4LB as a P-350. To do this properly, we would need a short description of each proposed game.

If you have a special interest in any of these areas, please write a short description of the basic situation. Write one paragraph for each (see examples above) and when we have a nice paragraph for each proposal we will post them somewhere to allow the finalists to be selected by vote.

[Nicola]

WOW Kevin, what a dish!

I have not had the time yet to fully taste the first (4LB), and you are still preparing a new Xmas meal ...
Anyway, I'd vote for Marengo's campaign. Second, Austerlitz.

Thanks,
Nicola

[Jeffrey Arnold]

Kevin,

We could discuss new topics for the 4LB system endlessly. The game is so flexible and adaptable that there will never be any shortage of good subjects for future titles. My only fear is that we may exhaust OSG's production capabilty (and your patience) with constant demands for new games.

I do have one question though. Four Lost Battles represents a very significant development of the Napoleon's Last Battles game system. All the new stuff (Cards, Hidden Units, etc, etc) have pushed the rules forward so much that I find myself constantly rethinking many of my old ideas.

I'm not complaining...I like the new stuff. However, I would be interested to know if you think the basic game system is stable for the future. Is there anything else you are thinking about adding to the next title in the series (whatever it may be)?

[kzucker]

Hi ~

Right now I am not thinking of many new things. It was part of my agenda to introduce hidden movement to the series but there is nothing else like that on my horizon. Of course each battle is unique and will usually require its own special rules.

David Jones has prepared the attached spreadsheet with an examination of key parameters for each of the above proposals.

[lanterna]

Here my votes.

b) Reprint of Naps Last Battles:
Great! De Luxe Edition in particular.

e) Marengo Campaign- Suchet at Acqui (failed attempt to cut off the Austrian retreat from Nice); Murat at Piacenza (Murat seizes the defile of Stradella); Lannes' at Montebello (brilliant victory over a superior Austrian force, June 9th); Marengo (June 14th).
Good. However you know I think 4LB System doesn't fit very well with Revolutionary Italian Campaigns until 1805 .

x) Magnano, (Cassano) Trebbia, Novi and Switzerland
A better option than Marengo's Campaign.

[If you have a special interest in any of these areas]
Obviously I do.

So finally, any hope for the Rivoli and Arcole Project?

Ciao Enrico

PS: Have you anyway considered a tactical System in which there are no casualties (prisoners apart), but chaos, dust, attrition and breathless Officers hurrying to rally fugitives?

[kzucker]

Ciao Enrico!

Thanks for the write-up. Do you know the location of a good online article on the 1799 campaign?

For now I prefer to leave the design of really tactical level games to others. Maybe you will be the one?

[Jeffrey Arnold]

Another vote for the 1799 battles. Suvarov has received virtually no attention.

[Scott Kunselman]

I vote for Bautzen. I am not aware of any other games published on the battle at any scale. Adding Lutzen and/or Dresden would be ok too.

[Jeffrey Arnold]

I vote for Bautzen. I am not aware of any other games published on the battle at any scale. Adding Lutzen and/or Dresden would be ok too.

Scott,

Lutzen & Bautzen are in the works as part of GMT's Triumph & Glory series. Also, there is an excellent NLB-style game on Dresden from New England Simulations. Just thought you would like to know.

[Nico[PL]]

Lutzen & Bautzen are in the works as part of GMT's Triumph & Glory series. Also, there is an excellent NLB-style game on Dresden from New England Simulations. Just thought you would like to know.

Yes, but they are not Kevin`s games ;). I vote for 1814 and Bautzen&Lutzen battles.

[lanterna]

Ciao Enrico!
Thanks for the write-up. Do you know the location of a good online article on the 1799 campaign?

There is a Fred Bey article (French) at
http://membres.lycos.fr/cricri83/fsmassena.htm

see also
http://pageperso.aol.fr/marsouin18/secondecoalition.html
http://www.warfare.it/campi/cassano.html
http://www.cronologia.it/storia/a1799.htm (italian timeline)
http://web.genie.it/utenti/m/mario.verdoglia/Storia/Napoleone/IICoal/IICoali.htm (italian history)

For now I prefer to leave the design of really tactical level games to others. Maybe you will be the one?

Already done, playable but historically correct "a la OSG". Are you interested?

Have you looked at Rivoli/Arcole ?

Ciao Enrico

[kzucker]

Are you interested?

Yes. Let us have a look.

[Jeffrey Arnold]

']Yes, but they are not Kevin`s games ;). I vote for 1814 and Bautzen&Lutzen battles.

I understand the feeling Nico. It would be great if Kevin were able to design & publish all of the games mentioned in this thread.

But (unless we can figure out how to clone Kevin), that's just not practical. So, at some point, we have to decide just what subjects we would most like to see. For me, that means battles & campaigns that have seen little or no treatment as wargames.

[Dave Jones]

I may be misunderstanding, but Arcola at the 4LB scale just wouldn't work. Very small battle centered on fights alongs roads and causeways. This is hard to model with ANY system.

[kzucker]

Dave-you are right. He has devised a much more "tactical" system...

[Dave Jones]

On the subject of what size is too small, I'd like to hear some AAR's from Kulm, the smallest of the 4LB battles. If it doesn't hold people's interest, then some other of the proposed combos are less than ideal.

[lanterna]

I may be misunderstanding, but Arcola at the 4LB scale just wouldn't work. Very small battle centered on fights alongs roads and causeways. This is hard to model with ANY system.

Completely agreeing with you Dave. 4LB scale works well after 1803 and with large battles.
Someone said:" Critical issues in making a map are setting a scale, but you can't set the map scale unless you know the time scale, and you can't set the time scale unless you know the unit scale. "
So I think there are two steps below 4LB scale.
- a regimental one (or demi-brigades tailored for Revolutionary Wars warfare) that is Arcole-Rivoli, which can be played as single scenarios clashes of 20000to20000 opponents or as a linked campaign)
- a tactical battalion-company one which allows to play also smaller clashes of 5000to5000 opponents like Maida 1806 (a Southern Italy campaign combat)

Hi Enrico

[Dave Jones]

Enrico, from you post, it would seem that you think 4LB wouldn't work with large pre-1903 battles like Hohenlinden and Fleurus. Is this because of a lack of a real "corps" system? If so I think this hurdle can be overcome. Besides several authors I have read include Paddy Griffith make the point that Nappy's credit for devising the French corps system is much over-stated and much of the innovation happened earlier and by others (like Moreau).

[lanterna]

Enrico, from you post, it would seem that you think 4LB wouldn't work with large pre-1903 battles like Hohenlinden and Fleurus. Is this because of a lack of a real "corps" system? If so I think this hurdle can be overcome. Besides several authors I have read include Paddy Griffith make the point that Nappy's credit for devising the French corps system is much over-stated and much of the innovation happened earlier and by others (like Moreau).
Yep, probably Paddy Griffith has some reasons. However what I say is that during the French RevWars there was a very pale image of the famous Kevin's Chain of Command System. In the Austrian army none at all.
Jean Victor Marie Moreau was a great organizer but at Hohenlinden had some luck (and the worst Austrian performance since 1792); but he did not apply any of the Napoleon’s logistics management of the following years. At Fleurus prince Saxe-Coburg wasn't able to activate a Chain of Command in order to gather his forces and leaved 5 Kolonnen to act by Initiative.
They were two important battles, while Kevin's esprit (genius) shines in particular during Campaign's games (i.e NLB is a milestone but the 4 Bras scenario can be boring when played 20 times).
Finally how can 4LB System simulate the historical significance of sieges?
Two great RevWars Campaigns ran around two long siege-matters (Mantua and Kehl). This historical point of view could be well tailored to a Kevin's game with a little rule editing effort. Note, Marengo is the Mediatic name for the battle, but the target was Alessandria's fortress ... and Genua's was under siege too.

Sorry for my bad English. Hi
Enrico

[kzucker]

Hi Enrico,

[No need to apologise, your English is quite readable.]

I am interested by a situation that 'cannot be gamed.' However, Sieges move too slowly for the system. Many family-type games allow you to change the board (terrain) as well as move your units, and in Sieges you are building so you have a whole new element (earth).

[Dave Jones]

Enrico, I can accept that the Command and Control in these Rev War period battles was generally inferior, but I believe the 4LB system can be easily modified to factor in the increased chaos and the unique "day of battle" reorganizations that were common during the period.

[lanterna]

Hi Enrico,

[No need to apologise, your English is quite readable.]

I am interested by a situation that 'cannot be gamed.' However, Sieges move too slowly for the system. Many family-type games allow you to change the board (terrain) as well as move your units, and in Sieges you are building so you have a whole new element (earth).

Hi Kevin
imagine five maps (four standard: Lodi bridge - Castiglione - Rivoli - Arcole; one little Mantua, with some fine artwork, where one can manage reserve units to send to other fronts and those needed to siege and to front some attacks). You could play a campaign starting at Lodi, passing from Castiglione-Lonato Map and Rivoli - goimg to Arcole and Rivoli and ending at Rivoli 1797 with Bajalics at Caldiero. The unit scale would be doubled and 4LB could be adapted to this situation. Imagine also the same situation on the Rhine front.
Is it wrong?
Hi Enrico

[lanterna]

Enrico, I can accept that the Command and Control in these Rev War period battles was generally inferior, but I believe the 4LB system can be easily modified to factor in the increased chaos and the unique "day of battle" reorganizations that were common during the period.

Exactly what I have done in Rivoli/Arcole system, but it's an amatorial 4LB relative not 4LB.
Hi

[lanterna]

.. using this thread for a precisation.

About Chains of Command or what was a French Corps. During NapWars there was a bit confusing use of military names for groups of units. In 1793 the Souham division had 40.000 men while Napoleon in Syria managed divisions with 2470 men (medium average). In 1812 Davout’s Corps had over 100.000 men while other Corps in 1800 had no more than 10000 men (Victor, Lannes).
Many Napoleonic armies had no Corps at all:
1796 Bonaparte’s Army of Italy with 4-5 inf. divisions.
1805 Massena’s Army of Italy with 4 inf. divisions and 2 cav. divisions
1807 Junot’s Army of Portugal with 3 inf. divisions and 1 cav. divisions
1809 Eugene’s Army of Italy with 6 inf. divisions and 2 cav. divisions
1811 Marmont’s Army of Spain with 8 inf. divisions
So there was no rule at all. Hear what Général Thiebault said: “It is almost difficult to tell what are the differences between an Army and a Corps. We have had Armies of 12, 15, and 20 thousand men and Corps of 40.000 men (some with more than 100.000 men too). In those situation we had armies commanded by division generals and Corps commanded by Marshals. Some armies had less division than the Corps. At least I personally saw armies became Corps and Corps turn to armies without any organization’s difference to be noted. Facts give me reason. Practically we must assume that a Général may call a group as Armée if it had some Corps or 4,5,6,7,8 divisions; he may call it Corps only the gathering of 2 or 3 divisions.”
from Thiebault’s Manuel général des services d'Etats-majors pag. 12.
When it was clear that it was very hard to manage 7 or 8 divisions on a large battlefield any Commander in Chief needed to split the command between other subordinates (as intermediaries commanders). This was the birth of the Lieutenants-Généraux.
Marmont said (De l'Esprit des Institutions militaries pag. 125):
“Army’s organization must grant operative divisions and reserves. One army of about 100.000 men with 10 or 12 divisions is very hard to lead, because of confusion growing between a number too large of independent units which can manoeuvre freely after some general disposition given by the Commander in Chief (Kevin’s Cards?). So we had a mandatory need to assemble divisions together in order to simplify the Commander in Chief’s job.”
Moreau was the first to adopt this option (Armée du Rhin) forming a considerably reserve for his army under his direct command. It wasn’t an elite Corps like Napoleon’s Guard but an assembly of a mix formed by the stronger Divisions with other division exposed to hard Campaign’s attrition. He divided his Army in a Reserve plus a Centre and two Wings as usual from the B.C. armies.
Unluckily doing so he did not create Corps d’Armée but large assemblages of divisions each dedicated to a particular strategic mode (i.e. the combat on the wings) not so interchangeable when employed in the battlefields; some were stronger in men and weapons and other were too weak.
The merit of Napoleon the 1st was to well understand the weakness of that Ordre de Bataille. He kept up an Elite Reserve with his own Guard and substituted the Moreau’s Centre and Wing with numbered Corps. The creation of the Nap’s Corps is officially dated in 1805 (Camp de Boulogne).
1800 Moreau’s Order of Battle:
Aile Droit (Lecourbe) – Centre (Gouvion St Cyr) – Aile Gauche (Sainte-Suzanne) – Reserve (Moreau) – 108.000 men.
1800 Bonaparte’s Armée de Réserve (judging difficult to manage 8 autonomous divisions):
Avant-Garde (Lannes with 2 divisions) – I Corps (Duhesme with 2 divisions) – II Corps (Victor with 2 Divisions) – one Division Detachée and a Cavalry Reserve with Murat.
It was a bit experimental organization, probably copied from Moreau’s, which wasn’t definitive until 1805 (in that year in effect the groups d’Armée were named with the old system, being numbered only after the start of the German Campaign).
So we can say that Napoleon was not the creator of Corps but he certainly organized a more practical use of that large troops’ bodies.

Sorry for the length
Hi Enrico

[Dave Jones]

I got Ramsay Phipps' books on the Rev War via interlibrary loan over the weekend. Only problem: it's 5 volumes, and I only have til the 28th to read them! Didn't exactly factor this into my Christmas schedule!

[kzucker]

Dave,

In a five volume set I assumere there are many OBs?

[Dave Jones]

Actually, I haven't found ANY OOB's, but several of the maps may be useful. He keeps refering to "my (army) tables", but I don't see any "tables" or appendices. Since I can't read them all in 10 days, I am reading the 1799 and 1800 Italy & Swiss campaign, then 1792-94 Belgium, then who know what. Have found some useful tidbits, but really focuses on events that future marshals were involved in to the exclusion of other things.

[lanterna]

Dave,

In a five volume set I assumere there are many OBs?

I got the Phipps volume on the First Italian Campaign. There weren't OoBs but only scattered notices. This is an hard to manage matter as Nafziger tells.
The OoBs you've seen, Kevin, are all from Austrian/French resources. If you need some hint please tell me.

Hi Enrico

[Dave Jones]

Enrico, do have any any maps or OOB for the Battle of the Mincio 1800, Loano 1795? Also looking for a period map for Magnano 1799.

[Dave Jones]

Was trolling through the McGill University online map archives and stumbled on something obvious to an Italian but an epiphany to me.. Three of the battles we have been discussing of Magnano 1799, Mincio 1800, and Mincio 1814 were fought in the same 20x20 mile square.... and undoubtedly others of the era too!

[lanterna]

Enrico, do have any any maps or OOB for the Battle of the Mincio 1800, Loano 1795? Also looking for a period map for Magnano 1799.Dear Dave

retrieving OOBs is an hard matter also if you have lot of sources. Often they are in conflict also in the “official” papers at SHAT Paris or Kriegsarchiv Vienna. At the moment, unfortunately, I haven’t ready stuff to send you. I can suggest some web links (sorry if you already know them) and some hints. Otherwise all can be done with a deep research (slow matter). It needs some time and all finally depends from the personal hurry and from the project in mind (a book? a game? or what?).

Loano is a small sea-town in Liguria (Savona-Genova) but the battle was fought on mountains and valleys around it. I presume that Nafziger could have a base OOB but I’ve never seen it. For general Italian map you can use some official military maps (end of 1800 – the topographical situation in the Italian country-land was not so changed from Nap Wars). These are at:

General maps (Castiglione and Lonato 1:25000) end of 1800 map

http://www.simmonsgames.com/research/authors/ItalyIstitutoGeoMilitare/Italy25/TextItalian.html (http://www.simmonsgames.com/research/authors/ItalyIstitutoGeoMilitare/Italy25/TextItalian.html)

1:200.000 Maps – see Brescia and Verona sheets (for Pozzolo and Magnano) or Genova for Loano

http://www.simmonsgames.com/research/authors/ItalyIstitutoGeoMilitare/Italy200/TextItalian.html (http://www.simmonsgames.com/research/authors/ItalyIstitutoGeoMilitare/Italy200/TextItalian.html)

A Loano 1795 map is at:

http://www.napoleon-online.com/Wars/Maps/Loano.gif (http://www.napoleon-online.com/Wars/Maps/Loano.gif)

but is very hard to read

Here’s a French October OoB

http://home.germany.net/101-102451/zf/oob/1795-10-OOB-France-Italy.html (http://home.germany.net/101-102451/zf/oob/1795-10-OOB-France-Italy.html)

Magnano (today Magnan) is a Verona’s southern suburb area. Like the town of Parona (other clash) it is very close to the main city. So is difficult to get a Magnano’s map (it depends from which geo scale the designer wants). That battle was also named the Villafranca Battle. A common Verona hinterland’s map could be useful as at.

http://www.maudoc.com/verona/atlante/igm_centroovest.jpg (http://www.maudoc.com/verona/atlante/igm_centroovest.jpg)

(First find the black big name San Giovanni Lupatoto right of Villafranca. You’ll find Magnano, very little, under the big black U of the Lupatoto word – left you’ll se a large red line which follows the Mincio river. Along it you’ll find Valeggio – Borghetto and Pozzolo)

Here’re some known 1799 Orders of Battle

Austria

http://www.histofig.com/history/empire/odb/odb_043.html (http://www.histofig.com/history/empire/odb/odb_043.html)

France

http://www.histofig.com/history/empire/odb/odb_048.html (http://www.histofig.com/history/empire/odb/odb_048.html)
Naples’ Army in May

http://www.histofig.com/history/empire/odb/odb_044.html (http://www.histofig.com/history/empire/odb/odb_044.html)



1800’s battles Chrono

Clash at Loano, 1 May 1800

Clash at Genua, 28 May 1800

Clash at Monte Nave, 6 June 1800

Battle of Casteggio (as Austrian say) – Montebello (as French say) , 9 June 1800

Battle of Marengo, 14 June 1800

Clash at Gazzolo, 21 December 1800

The so called (from the Austrian) Mincio’s battle was best known as Pozzolo [Valeggio] Battle (in French) or as The Xmas battle, 25-26 December 1800.

French Sites

http://membres.lycos.fr/toulouse1814/Pozzolo.html (http://membres.lycos.fr/toulouse1814/Pozzolo.html)

http://pageperso.aol.fr/marsouin18/Pozzolo1800.html (http://pageperso.aol.fr/marsouin18/Pozzolo1800.html)

http://napoleonuniforme.free.fr/lesgrandesbatailles/nouveau_fichier38.html (http://napoleonuniforme.free.fr/lesgrandesbatailles/nouveau_fichier38.html)

If you’ll e-mail a private message to me I could send you some files if I’ll find something other.

Hoping to be of some help.

Hi Enrico

[Dave Jones]

Enrico, that's quite a alot to sort through! Thank you very much. My Google searches don't tend to find the detailed French websites. I translated the stuff on the Battle of Mincio/Pozzollo; first real information I have ever been able to acquire. It's quite clear that, contrary to what Digby Smith says, the French OOB at Pozzollo/Mincio was not "as Marengo"!

Extending my example of the "Box of Battles", if you make the box about 30 miles by 70 miles, it contains 1800 Mincio/Pozzollo, 1814 Mincio, 1799 Magnano, 1805 Caldiero, 1797 Caldiero/Arcola, 1797 Lonato/Castiglione, and probably others! What an amazing collection of battles in such a small area!

And now I figure out that the battle of Custoza was in this "box"...

[lanterna]

Enrico, that's quite a alot to sort through! Thank you very much. My Google searches don't tend to find the detailed French websites. I translated the stuff on the Battle of Mincio/Pozzollo; first real information I have ever been able to acquire. It's quite clear that, contrary to what Digby Smith says, the French OOB at Pozzollo/Mincio was not "as Marengo"!

Extending my example of the "Box of Battles", if you make the box about 30 miles by 70 miles, it contains 1800 Mincio/Pozzollo, 1814 Mincio, 1799 Magnano, 1805 Caldiero, 1797 Caldiero/Arcola, 1797 Lonato/Castiglione, and probably others! What an amazing collection of battles in such a small area!

And now I figure out that the battle of Custoza was in this "box"...

Yes ... for the maps, but can you imagine how many countersheets?

Digby Smith strangely made a lot of mistakes in his Oobs (strangely because he used valuable sources). Pozzolo (with an l) is the name of a 1799 battle too, but is another Pozzolo near Novi Ligure (there is also a Marengo village near Verona Villafranca).

Merry Xmas and Happy New Year
Enrico

[Dave Jones]

Here's the kind of situation you often see in RevWar OOBs:

Général de brigade : Clausel
Adjudants-généraux : Puthod, Liébault et Hullin

5e 1/2 brigade légère (2 bataillons) 1 900 h
3e 1/2 brigade de ligne 730 h
21e 1/2 brigade de ligne 1 000 h
68e 1/2 brigade de ligne (1 bataillon) 900 h
1er régiment de Cavalerie 263 h
12e régiment de Dragons 200 h
11e régiment de Hussards 250 h
Dragons cisalpins 100 h
1er régiment de Hussars cisalpins 308 h

There are probably anywhere from two to five brigades here, but there is only one Gen de Brigade, but there are three adjutants! It would be incorrect to assume all these adjutants commanded brigades, but it is likely at least one of them did. From my experience, brigades in this period were rarely led by colonels (chef de batalions). Adds an extra exercise in quesswork to setting up your OOB!

[lanterna]

A gen-de-brigade could have been the commander of a division (column) as a "Général-de-division a titre provisoire". Many high officer were "provisoires" (a sort of probationary period).
Generally only Adjudants-généraux of the CiCs or (Corps?) Commanders had the rank to lead a Brigade (one exception, between many, was Lannes at Loano).
The Colonels were generally Chef-de-Brigade (alias Regimental commanders or Half-Brigade). The Chef-de-Bataillon(s) could have been Colonels (Lieut.Colonels) but also Majors or in some rare situation also Captains.
After the 2nd Amalgamation of 1796 often Chef-de-Brigades became Brigade Commanders of their own Regiment (Demi-Brigade) with one/two Cavalry Sqns.
Brigades often deployed with an Avant Guard (Carabiniers and Grenadiers Coys called also battalions but smaller) - two battalions in line with the artillery (right and left wing) - one battalion in centre (reserve) with the cavalry (if any).
Cavalry was attached to infantry in small units. Cavalry Brigades were often only administrative units deploying with some reserve squadrons. Operative Cavalry units appeared later.

The units in the example probably was a Division with an attached Cavalry Reserve Brigade .

I.e. Général Bertrand Clauzel (1772-1842): was Général de brigade on Feb. 05/1799 - Général de division à titre provisoire on Sept. 25/1802 - and finally Général de division on Dec. 18/1802. As Général de brigade he commanded brigades but also the 4th division of armée d'Italie (mar/1800-04/jul/1800) and the Right division of the armée de Saint-Domingue (10/may/1802-11/jul/1802).

Curious ....

This OoB is from the 1799 Trebbia stream's engagement:

Division Montrichard (not Clausel)

5e 1/2 brigade légère (2 bataillons) 1 900 h
3e 1/2 brigade de ligne 730 h (I have 2e not 3e)
21e 1/2 brigade de ligne 1 000 h
68e 1/2 brigade de ligne (1 bataillon) 900 h
1er régiment de Cavalerie 263 h
12e régiment de Dragons 200 h
11e régiment de Hussards 250 h (I have 308)
Dragons cisalpins 100 h
1er régiment de Hussars cisalpins 308 h

Artillery and Sappers: 122
total: 5773

Too many matching numbers to think they are different OoBs!

I have a doubt.
Official French OoBs present tables called "Situations" and are generally introduced in this way:
AVANT-GARDE
Général Commandant l’avant-garde MASSÉNA
Général Commandant la 1ere division. LAHARPE.
Général Commandant la 2eme division. MEYNIER.
Généraux de brigade 1ere division. PIJON, MENARD, SAINT HILAIRE
Généraux de brigade 2eme division. DOMMARTIN, CERVONI, JOUBERT
Adjutants Généraux 1ere division Chabran, Dalons, Giacomoni, Boyer
Adjutants Généraux 2eme division Thouret, Monnier, Lorcet
Adjoints aux Adjutants Généraux Bayle, Dommanget, Ducos et Bergier (Lieutenants à la 99e), capitaine Guasco, Helle (souslieutenant à la 51e demi-brigade), Pailhès (lieutenant à la 22e demi-brigade), Girard, Chassaignac, Parra, Grive et Marchand (capitaines à la 46e), Rat, Labrousse. André.
Aides de camp Lautour (capitaine à la 3e demi-brigade d'infanterie légère), Reille, Lahoz, La Harpe (fils, sous lieutenant), Mouton, Autier.

In your OoB probably the leading row (Division commander) was missing and Clausel was one of the three Brigadiers (Partoneaux and Richepanse for Cavalry ??).

Ciao Enrico

[kzucker]

Enrico-

You knoiw a lot about this subject. Have you ever considered writing a book about it?

[lanterna]

Enrico-

You knoiw a lot about this subject. Have you ever considered writing a book about it?

In Italy there is low interest on napoleonics matters (no editors) and I write in English as Goofy. However Arcole and Rivoli could be two ready booklets "a la Voykowitsch - Castiglione".
I have written 6-7 books on the Great War in Italy.

Hi Kevin

PS (for Dave):
I confirm the general Perruquet de Montrichard as the Commander of your June 1799 OoB. He had only one French Brigadier (Clausel) who remained at Bologna during the Trebbia's (Tidone) battle. The others three were Italian Cisalpine generals (LaHoz, Pino and Teulié) AdC Hulin leaded a March Column but Montrichard commanded alone.

[Dave Jones]

Enrico... I knew all along that was Montrichard's division, I just accidentally omitted the top line from my cut-n-paste!
That's pretty detailed info about the various generals. Are you getting that from Georges Six or elsewhere?

[lanterna]

Enrico... I knew all along that was Montrichard's division, I just accidentally omitted the top line from my cut-n-paste!
That's pretty detailed info about the various generals. Are you getting that from Georges Six or elsewhere?

Hi Dave,
having not Georges Six, but a lot of elsewhere ...
Enrico

[Dave Jones]

Ah, Enrico, you seem to be shy about revealing your sources! Are you willing to share this wealth of information if any of these Rev War topics lead to games?

[lanterna]

Ah, Enrico, you seem to be shy about revealing your sources! Are you willing to share this wealth of information if any of these Rev War topics lead to games?

Not at all! Try with this site:
http://web.genealogie.free.fr/Les_militaires/Les_militaires.htm
Other stuff I downloaded from
gallica.bnf.fr
site: "i.e. Biographies, Fastes de la Legion d'Honneur, portraits etc."
Give a look. All's in French. Hi

Enrico

[kzucker]

A small expansion to Four Lost Battles, with just 4 pages of scenario info, two maps and 130 counters.

Wartenburg, Oct. 3, 1813
This was IV Corps and Bertrand's failure to prevent Blücher from crossing the Elbe. Blücher chose to cross in the swampy triangle of the "re-entrant bend near the town of Elster. a narrow, out of the way neck of land. For achieving this important foothold astride Napoleon's riverine LOC to Dresden, Yorck was made Prince of Wartenburg.


The Battles of Löwenburg, 18-19 August
Another battle from the Autumn, Napoleon's Battles on the Bober. Napoleon Won...