combat result question

[Lannes]

boy, im on a roll today

deroy recieves a D1/2 result.
according to th crt example, hes elim'd. according to the rule book he loses half his combat strength.
which way do we go here. I opt for the latter :confused:

[Nico[PL]]

1/2 always means 'lose half strength' ... of course if You have only one unit it is eleminated

[Lannes]

thanks Nico !

[guardafeu]

Supply Trunk line question for Four Lost Battles and Seven Days of 1809. Can the trunk line, from baggage train that leads eventually to map edge, be traced A. on roads only. or B. on roads or trails. The rules suggest contradictory interpetation.

[MHaggett]

In the Days system, your 2nd interpretation is correct. The trunk line can incorporate both. I'm not sure that I see a contradiction, but english is a strange language, particularly when parsing 'and' and 'or'.

4LB has different ranges, but the tracing is pretty much the same. Also, supply is only traced when the appropriate card is played.

Hope that helps :)

[guardafeu]

The confusing part is, for both systems Days and FLB, because the wording is the same, and I quote: "If a Baggage Train is not on a road hex,...units may not trace a supply line to it."

This implies you can't trace trunk line on trails.

[MHaggett]

The whole quote--this is from the Days ver 3.27 rules, 14.1:

A Combat Unit is in supply if it can trace a Forward
Supply Line (see Glossary), no more than 7 hexes
long (not counting the unit’s hex), through any type
of terrain, either:
A. Directly to a Friendly Supply Source, or
B. To its own Corps Baggage Train. If the Corps
Baggage Train is not on a road hex, with a “Trunk”
Line (see Glossary) of 27 MPs or less to a Friendly
Supply Source, units may not trace a Supply Line to
it. A Trunk Line may comprise up to 27 MPs of connected
road and/or trail hexes including the Baggage
Train and a Friendly Supply Source.

There is no implication--it says straight out that, while the baggage train itself must be on a road, the trunk line can consist of roads or trails. It might be this was clarified from the original.

If you want to ask why the wagon can trace on trails while only being able provide supply from a road hex, I have some ideas (mostly having to do with room to deploy the Corps depot so that the divisional transport can have ready access to the supplies--this space is likely lacking on a trail), but it is a different question, and one likely only Kevin can answer ;)

[guardafeu]

You're right, that is precisely what puzzled me. For example, a baggage train *on a trail* can be only one trail or road hex from a supply source. Yet units are forbidden from tracing to it.

But a train *on a road*, tracing to a supply source (in Four Lost Battles) of any length as long as it's by roads and trails, far from supply source hex, perhaps behind enemy lines, near the enemy, a variety of terrain though trail bound, etc. That train can provide supply. Just seems odd that the important factor is that the train happens to be sitting on a road.

I mention this because seemingly weird things like that can happen in both Seven Days 1809 and FLB.

[kzucker]

Look at it from the perspective of the wagon master of the Corps, and his employees, the wagon drivers.

The wagon drivers do not have any maps. They cannot stop at Kinkos and make a few copies. If he is lucky the wagon master has some kind of map. So they cannot look at the situation as simply and easily as you do.

They are on the ground; their point of view is limited. It is very easy to get confused and lost. That is why the baggage train must be on the road.

The baggage train counter represents a terminus of a line of wagons. All the wagons are not in that one hex. They are shuttling to and from that hex. And from there, they may have to carry their loads further toward the troops. But not when the enemy are nearby. It is just like in the old west: "Circle the wagons." The wagons have to be protected.

Also, the supply line to the wagons represents something very real, in the minds of the men. That is their line of retreat, the way back, and they are very sensitive to any threat in this direction.

Supply at this scale in these games is not about a literal lack of food. It is about the perception of being cut off in hostile territory. If you cut the troops off at 3 PM, they do not suddenly starve at 4 PM, as though they are reciving a constant resupply every hour. Troops can survive a whole day without food. But the wagons stand for something, just as the morale of a regiment is bothered if their flag is captured, or if the general is killed.

Why did we allow the LOC to divert from the main roads? Looking, again, from the vantage point of the wagon drivers, their orders will say, follow the road out of Wittenberg that leads to Berlin, turn at such and such a town and proceed x miles. But what if, alontg the way, there is a road block? Perhaps a detour can be found, some local guides or even a staff officer is there to guide them around the obstacle; but it is usually possible to find a little detour that leads back to the main road.

[guardafeu]

Perfectly valid points from Kevin. I brought up the matter because I thought situations might be common in games where extreme contrasts can occur. Maybe they're not so common though.

Let me be specific if you've got maps handy. In Grossbeeren, a Prussian Train in 0211 cannot trace supply because it's on a trail, even though it's 1 hex from supply source. It's right there, they can see it, no maps or Kinkos necessary. But a Train in 0213 can trace supply because it's on a road.

A Prussian Train on the road in the forest hex 1520 can trace supply, even if the French occupy Grossbeeren, by infinite deviations through trails finally to the road to Teltow (0213). OK, they found a way, that's acceptable, but the supply guys in 0212 are still saying Ach du Lieber, es ist dort druben! It's right there! The supply road and supply source. We can see it!

Same kinds of situations in Seven Days 1809. A French Train in 1410: can not function as a supply source, even though it's on a trail to Geisenfeld a hex away.

I guess what I'm saying is, if a corps can travel via trail, why not it's baggage train, if only for a short distance. Say 4 hexes for NLB/FLB and 2 hexes for Days. That is: a baggage train on a trail can still provide supply if 4 hexes by trail to a supply road or supply source hex.

I know, probably more rules than players want or need!

[kzucker]

It is time for you to write your own House Rule.

Fix it anyway you want.