Vedettes rules

[Edgar]

In your OSG Report / May (pages 5-6) you tell us that is very possible that Vedettes rules could have some important changes in the 7 Days of 1809.

Now, that the production has started and rules surely consolidated (the web version is the final one?), can you tell if the counters have "0" strenght and the alternate vedette is now official?

Have you playtested it? Do you recommend the alternate rules for this new and all old Days games? They are very interesting, there is much fog of war than usual because you can't count on information from vedettes as a sure thing.

Please, what's your opinion about the impact the alternate rule could have on your previous (and the new) games?

[kzucker]

Edgar,

We didn't institute the vedette rules changes suggested by Dave. I had a hunch that we started the development of the vedette rules many years ago just as Dave recommended. However, the rules have evolved into their present shape over about 15 years from that very simple idea, quite unavoidably.

[Edgar]

OK, just curious: do you think that any campaign scenario could resent from historicity (or game winner) if I it's played using the alternate vedette?

[kzucker]

Hi Edgar,

No, I do not think the vedette rules will significantly impact the outcome of the game. However, I think if you try, you will start to find the simple rule suggested by Dave will not cover every situation. But it would be great if you want to try using those rules and let us know if they do work.

[kzucker]

The attachment contains the Alternate Vedette Rules (from CON system folder) that have been adapted to the Days Series. Please give them a try and let us know what you think!

[Jason Roach]

It may be a good idea that wherever the term "Repulse" is used in conjunction with Vedettes, replace it with the word "Scouting" and use some sort of Scouting table. That word always did seem odd to me when it comes to Veddettes, but it does point back to a game mechanic and that may not be what is actually happening on the ground.

In addition, I do think it will become rather unwieldy if you have to follow that counter back to a leader. It has been a while since I looked over the rules, but don't Veddettes have to be Command range in order to activate anyway??? Being within the command range of a leader, you would not add much or anything to the rules, and still be able to simulate the unit being within a short enough horse trot to relay the info back to your leader. Heck, you only need one guy with a horse to get back to command, and that is what the Command range already simulates.

The only thing that you may want to add is that "the Veddette must still be in Command Range of any friendly leader upon entering enemy EZOC, in order to be able to Scout."

Even with that however, if you add the possible movment points which a Veddette can expend from the point it is activated, it is still within reason that he may be able to report back the infromation; THat would be OSG's historical design call.

A scouting table may a good idea, but that needs to be fully vetted for its consequences (play time, extra rules, etc...), especially if you have eliminated units and retreats as a result. The one thing you want to be careful with is in creating a whole "sub-system" within the Days Rules. The Days system by its nature and scale is not intended to be as complex as the Campaigns of Nap system.

[kzucker]

"...the Veddette must still be in Command Range of any friendly leader upon entering enemy EZOC, in order to be able to Scout."

I agree that is better than the original idea.

I also agree this rule has to be tested amply before we make any of these changes official. I hope that in publishing these ideas on the discussion board first, some people will give these rules a spin.

[cmoeller]

"...the Veddette must still be in Command Range of any friendly leader upon entering enemy EZOC, in order to be able to Scout."

In Days, command range is only two hexes (four along roads), which is going to make scouting extremely limited using this ruling.

Chris

[Jason Roach]

Chris,

This is a good point.

Perhaps just: "The Vedette must be within 4 hexes of any friendly leader upon entering an enemy EZOC to be able to Scout."

Note that 4 is not only the max command range, but also the same range that a leader must be away from an enemy unit to reorganize. Therefore it would be consistent. Also, the emphasis in the above line as far as range is "ANY" friendly leader. That would create some flexabilty, and make some sense as well.

In any event, this will limit the Vedettes scouting ability to a large extent; if that is the goal.

[kzucker]

I think the situation we have now is that a vedette operating all alone can probe a unit half a map away from the nearest friendly unit and immediately report that information back to the player.

A messenger in this campaign was able to convey information at the rate of 5.6 miles per hour over a long distance, average, with wrong turns, traveling on roads and trails. We rounded that down a little and called it 27 miles per turn. That is information just enroute. It has to be collected and written down by the sender and processed and registered by the receiver, which means there woud be a delay of two whole turns to find out what was happening half a map away. By the time something could be organized to take account of that information, it would be out of date. So effective command cannot reach that distance; we have to rely on the local initiative of the guy on the spot.

At much shorter distances, at a radius of 5 hexes, there is only a time lag of two hours (out of a six hour turn), to react to what we have found out from a scout's report. That means that any units within 3 or 4 hexes of the scouted enemy would have time to receive that information and march over there.

The conclusion is that 3 or 4 hexes is the maximum range - any further and the friendly forces would not be able to reach the revealed enemy unit before the enemy's next move would invalidate the information.

[Jason Roach]

Kevin,

Very good analysis.

I think that based on the above, it does sound like there is a very logical reason to have that rule read "out to four hexes." So, as a result, in order for Vedette to use its scoutong capability (i.e. revealing the units), it must be within four hexes of any friendly leader unit.

Thanks for the insight; your comments make a lot of sense out of this proposed rule concerning the distance from which the Vedette can actually use its scouting abilities.

-Jason

[kzucker]

Jason,

Thanks for your kind remarks. In this case we were all able to intuitively guess that the range should be 3 or 4 hexes. The analysis of the C3 shows that we were correct. But it is better not to rely too much on guesswork.

I have posted the revised file that takes account of the changes to the proposed Scouting Table rule (several messages above, dated 12-17-2004)

[cmoeller]

>in order for Vedette to use its scouting capability (i.e. revealing the units), it must be within four hexes of any friendly leader unit.

The range sounds reasonable. Why must the scout be within range of a Corps commander exclusively (vs. a friendly division)? Would vedettes only send information on to the corps commanders? What about a Division operating independently?

In the Days games, I find that a typical Corps deployment has its divisions 2-4 hexes away from the corps commander, strung out in a semi-circle facing the enemy (optimizing the commander's range). This rule would leave the vedettes of such a corps blind, or at best 2 hexes out ahead of the line units.

Chris

[Jim Anderson]

That was to be my suggestion also, make the 3-4 hex range for the vedettes to a Division under the command of the Corps Leader. That would make the vedette useful in scouting.

Jim

[kzucker]

Chris,

A division operating independently is operating on its general's own initiative. He is not completely under the player's control. By the same token, what he knows, the information he has of local conditions and on which he bases his actions, is also unknown to the player (and remains unknown).

Every infantry division is assumed to have its own mounted scouts, reporting to the division general. What he knows about the enemy, you can only find out when he either repulses or attacks the enemy.

In these games we are trying to put the player in the situation of an Army Commander who is receiving information by courier, and partly by his own observation. We don't want to put the player into the situation where he knows everything that all of his front-line commanders knows.

By allowing the Player to know what his Corps Officers know, by putting him in the driver's seat at Corps headquarters, we are already allowing him to know more than he ought to know.

Don't forget that it is not only the vedettes that provide information to the player.

Don't overlook the new rule, under 1.51 Revealing Hidden Forces, #4. This is a Line of Sight rule.

[kzucker]

(change) The same restriction should apply to this Line of Sight rule, that applies to vedette scouting: i.e., the observer must be within four hexes of any friendly leader.

We could go a bit further, and allow a unit with a Line of Sight as defined in 1.51 to reveal only the rounded strength of the hex (to nearest 10 SPs) - instead of turning all those units face up.

[cmoeller]

That's a convincing response, Kevin. I'm interested to see how it will play out. It will mean more "leading from the front" with the Corps commander than I've been doing.

AND this brings me to an off-topic question related to your mention of Line-of-Sight, which is what the hell is a hilltop, exactly? There are some examples on the map, but I'm afraid they leave me scratching my head. Is any unit looking down a slope hex-side considered on a hill when tracing LOS in that direction?) or is a hill any hex that has slopes on more than "x" hexsides?

I assume that the little triangles (hilltop 425 and so on), are not involved :)

Chris

[kzucker]

A unit is considered to be on a Hilltop for LOS purposes if the line of sight goes downhill through a Slope Hex. The Terrain Key on the map shows this.

HILLTOP
............slope....\
...........hexside...\............................ ..... TARGET UNIT

[cmoeller]

A unit is considered to be on a Hilltop for LOS purposes if the line of sight goes downhill through a Slope Hex.

That's what I wanted, thanks!

Chris

[kzucker]

Chris Moeller and I have been revisiting the Vedette Scouting rules that were posted in December. The Scouting Rules have been refined ... here they are (also in the word doc attached).

13.4 Vedette Scouting (replaces 13.25)

When Vedettes attempt a "Repulse," this is not an attempt to push through an enemy concentration. Rather, it is merely an attempt to "scout." This "Scouting attempt" is executed exactly like a Repulse, with the exception that there is no enemy retreat. Instead, information may be obtained by the owner of the Scouting Vedette.

13.41 In order to declare a scouting attempt, the vedette must be in an EZOC at the end of its Movement, and within 4 hexes of any friendly leader (counted without regard to prohibited terrain and/or EZOCs). A Vedette may declare one hex as its target. Additional vedettes may not make separate scouting attempts on that same hex this turn.

13.42 Procedure:
Both sides will check Initiative to determine whether the vedette gets through the enemy screen to catch a good look at other units there. If the scout doesn't get through the screen he finds no information; on the other hand the Scout may find out only the unit types in the target hex (i.e., specifying infantry, cavalry, vedette, and train)—leaving the units themselves hidden; or, the scout may discover the units and leaders (face-up).

Step 1: The target player reveals whether he has at least one light cavalry or vedette unit in the target hex. If he has none, he will not check Initiative in Step 2.

Step 2: Each Player may make an Initiative check (exception: see step 1) by rolling the die —success means rolling equal or less than its Initiative Rating. Check Initiative for the scouting vedette and the highest-rated vedette or light cavalry target.

Step 3: Scouting Results
1. Target (only) passes Initiative Check— Scouts Driven Off (no information).
2. Both sides fail their Initiative check— (no information)
3. Both sides pass their Initiative check— Scouts Have a View (reveal unit types).
4. Scout (only) passes initiative check—Scout Gets Through (actual units are shown, face-up).

Step 4: Displace the Scouting Vedette two hexes. It cannot participate in combat (its mission for the turn is to scout and report back). The Vedette may not attack in the Combat Phase, and remains "in contact" with enemy units if it has no displacement hex free of EZOCs.

13.43 Vedette Loss: Any die roll result of "one" in the initiative check eliminates one opposing Vedette.