Rearguards for CoNS

[Adam]

Hi Kevin,

At last year's Zuckerpalooza, Lou Manios had a rather simple and elegent solution to the rearguard/flypaper problem. Are you still favoring that?

It was to eliminate SPs to gain resistance die mods to jog the memory a bit...

Adam

[kzucker]

Hi Adam,

So that others can consider it, it would be great if you spell out the whole rule, maybe give an example the old way and then using the suggested rule.

[Adam]

Been a while but I'll try...

In order to prevent the "flypaper" problem that can occur in pursuit situations (this is when a pursuer does well enough on his pursuit roll to finish the pursuit adjacent to the defeated force), Lou suggested allowing the retreating player to choose to eliminate SPs in order to gain additional favorable die mods on the Pursuit table. It may need to be fine tuned a little but at first look, a straight one for one seemed to work well.

Simple and no messy additional rules...it appeared to really help with this problem.

Perhaps we are not seeing an additional game problem that would result if this were tried?

Comments?

Adam

[Adam]

BTW - I don't know the audience here and am assuming a fair amount of systemic knowledge...my apologies if I am being presumptious...

Don't be shy if you are not familiar with this problem or the game effect it has...

Adam

[kzucker]

Adam,

I think it should work well, as advertised.

[Nico[PL]]

I think this rule was 'used' ;) during retreat from battle at Vauchamps.

"What was worse, beside Lagrange came Grouchy's cavalry. Zieten's command was destroyed with only about a quarter of his men able to escape. Some Russian battalions formed square and were able to retreat in good order which bought some time for Blücher. "

[Nico[PL]]

Hmm, but do we use this rule when moving "in order to escape from an EZOC" (this rule is on http://www.metrowargamers.com/mt-archives/events/zuckerpalooza_2003.php )
or during retreat "to gain additional favorable die mods on the Pursuit table"?

I think that during retreat after battle...

[Adam]

It has been a while since we played and I just forgot when one applies the Manios solution...likely there is a good reason why we came up with doing it that way - I just don't remember now...

Adam

[kzucker]

Adam,

How would that rule work in simulating the pursuit after Jena and Auerstadt in 1806? There you had a pursuit that lasted for two weeks and stretched over two hundred miles; the last Prussian force wasn't overtaken until they had nearly reached Stettin.

[Adam]

The problem is mainly a systemic one - advances under a flypaper problem are faster, offer no attrition and require no initiative or AP points...seems counter-intuiative to have advances under combat conditions be more efficient than marches in rear areas...

Couldn't the strategic retreats you mention be still handled under the game system? They just wouldn't be automatic but system and player driven? You choose to follow and defeat an army using your army's ability rather than allowing the system to do it for you?

Adam

[kzucker]

Or make pursuits subject to attrition. It is probably true that there was less attrition by a pursuit force than for a normal march.

[daniel]

Kevin
To make rules clear, I have some precisions to ak you. I try to make questions clear for short answers :

1/ override option : Result of a combat is 3 losses for attacker (pitch option) and 1 for defender (pursuit option). Defender wins but choose override; He retreats 1 hex. If attacker doesn’t or cannot pursue, must defender loose 1 loss, considering he becomes the looser and he must suffer as many losses as the “winner”?
Finally, How much losses takes attacker, 1 or 3?

2/ Reserve : in a pursuit battle, does cavalry differential counts for pursuit, as it wasn’t in reserve (274 of consolidated rules)?

3/ In reserve criteria, do I count artillerys strength or only cav and inf?

4/ Can a force with less than 20 SP choose pitch battle if it he put in reserve one quarter of its strength or 8 SP?

5/ If a force choose pursuit, can a subordinate cavalry force be put in reserve to keep possibility of pursuing ?

6/ Can a retreating force try to repulse an enemy force on his path of retreat?
If fail, does it suffer any more loss?
If succeed, must it enter in this hex or can it pass beside?

7/ can a force with more than 20 SP attack from his hex with all his strength or must it withheld the SP in excess of 20 (because new reserve rules) like a force in mountain which can only attack with 9 SP

8/ Change detrmining cav superiority; In the past a force in woods or in affecting terrain didn’t count for cav superiority. Now, only cav in mountain or swamp is affected. Is there a reason for this change?

9/ when artillery fires against a multi hex force with more than 30 SP but with each hex containing less than 30 SP, does the bonus apply?
Do we count reserves in the 30 SP?

10/ In 1807, can a supply source be placed in a town other than board edges of Warsaw (rule 91 of consolidated rules)

11/ A counter attacking force can attack only one attacking hex but it must withheld half the strength of unattacked hex. Can reserves fulfil this condition or must the counter attacking force use only released strength and withdraw them of main attack to fulfil conditions?
Exemple : enemy has 10 and 15 SP. I have 25 SP with 5 in reserve. Can I attack 15 SP with 20 SP with reserve to watch at other enemy hex or must I withdraw 5 SP with only 15 left to attack enemy stronger hex, (I know I can release 5 SP in reserve but I need them for pursuit)

12/ Theory : You say a force cannot attack with more than 20 SP per hexside. If I am completely surrounded, and I have 120 SP, these 120 SP can attack enemy as a whole?

13/ Commitment of reserves : Must you pass an initiative die roll to commit unit in reserve or is it only for units which want to move (from an EZOC or at 1 hex)

and thanks for all
daniel

[Nico[PL]]

Kevin, we are impatiently waiting for Your answers :rolleyes: :D

[kzucker]

Nico,

I think you have enough experience and knowledge of the game design to make a good attempt at answering these questions. If you would, try posting them here with your reasonsing and then I will comment.

That will work better for me in these times.

[Nico[PL]]

Ok, I`ll give a try...

1) Defender used oportunity after failed attack of enemy and withdraws. He has won - he has beaten the enemy and was able to withdraw unmolested (if pursuit failed or attacker was unable to pursue). I think it is exception for rule "must suffer as many losses as winner". The real winner here is the one who has lost. So finally I would say that attacker loose 3SP and defender 1SP plus pursuit.

2) Hmm...Reserves Optional Rules were made for pitched battle chit so I think that in pursuit battle cavalry is counted even if it is not in reserve.

Pitched battle is like long boxing fight, at the end only reserves are 'fresh'. Pursuit battle is like fast boxing fight ;), one boxer comes, strike and it is knockout (his or enemy), and the winner is somewhat still 'fresh'.

3) Artillery is counted. [Kevin Zucker - ConsimWorld - Campaign of Napoleon series - post #1651]

4) I think yes, if they can have reserves they can try to fight long battle. Although they should pray that enemy wont have big force.

5) I cant find reason why not.

6) Hard one. As retreat and pursue is in the same time, losser trying to repulse some other forces, would have pursuing forces on his back, so it would be hard, but why not? However I think odds should be high to succed 10:1 I say (so some 1-2SP stupid forces would not block retreat of 20SP+).
However if failed to repulse it should be (maybe?) destroyed if pursuer manage to move on lossers hex, or triple losses or ...?
I think if losser manage to repulse he has to move on this hex cause pursuing forces are after him and he doesnt have luxus of maneuvring.

7) I think he can attack with more then 20SP if he is attacking two or more hexes (20SP per hexside!).

8) Yes I think woods also should deny cav superiority. As for affecting terrain, if the river is not big, it would not be so hard to cross it...

9) I think not, there is more then 30SP but they are not so tightly setup. In my opinion reserves should be counted, they are not far far beyond field of battle, only staying 500,700 or 1000m in the rear. Cannonballs still can fly there.

10) Hmm I think it can be only in Warsaw. It was only major city (on the map) at Vistula river and on the map we have only Wyszygrod and Plock (bigger cities) that are at Vistula river. I dont think those two last would have in 1807 infrastucture to become 'supply source'.....

11) I think those forces that are withheld are supposed to be 'watching' other enemy when main forces are fighting. It dosent mean that there is no fighting, but only little skirmishing etc. So in my opinion forces in reserve cannot fulfil this condition.

12) 20SP per hexside, so yes!:) Although enemy firing with artillery on those 120SP would get deadly bonus) - shooting practice I say.

13) As unit in reserves are near battlefield it is easier to give them orders and join battle. So I say no. Moving forces on initiative is from hex to another hex, this is smth harder I say so, only here we roll...

[kzucker]

Comment: on #12, stacking limit per hex is 48 SPs.

[Nico[PL]]

Kevin,

Rest is OK? What about point 6?

[kzucker]

On point #1, I would say both sides lose one SP if there is no pursuit.

On point #6, (and in general) avoid exceptions; a certain amount of exceptions are desirable- like spice in cooking, a pinch is all you need. Odds necessary for Repulse should not change, and if the Repulse fails that means the unit fails to retreat the full amount specified, and that case is already covered.

On point #5, the cavalry has to be put in reserve before the outcome of combat is known.

On point #10, the French used the canal from Naklo to Bydgoszcz to bring supplies into the Vistula = Supply Source on the map edge near Torun.

[cmoeller]

Just thinking out loud here, but using the Jena example, the Prussian "player" could have increased the resistance (there should be a cieling as to how much you can reduce it), and the French still made their pursuit roll, resulting in horrific casualties and a long pursuit. I like the idea. I like the defender's ability to decide how much they want to risk an out and out run for it, and how much they want to take guaranteed losses to prevent a larger one.

And I can see a case being made for a total disintegration and rout, in which there's no possibility of organized resistance (maybe you'd have to use units in the reserve?). At Jena, if I remember correctly, Ruchel was coming up the road as the rest of the army was falling apart, and put up some sort of rear-guard defense (didn't work of course).

Chris

Another thought: rather than a rear-guard which tends to negate pursuits, what about some sort of disorganization of the pursuer after a long pursuit? A pursuing force can't get a movement command next turn (has to move via initiative)? I have absolutely no idea how that'd play out, but seems inuitively in the ball park.

[kzucker]

Hi Chris,

I'd encourage you to fill-out those ideas and write them up as optional rules. I especially like the third point. There has long been a complaint that both retreating and pursuing forces can use those long retreat and pursuit table results to extend their marches. There is a grain of truth in that; but if neither a pursuing or a retreating force -that moved more than say 4 MPs- could receive a Movement Command in the turn following their retreat/pursuit, that would remediate the problem.

Actually, the fastest marches often took place during retreat and pursuit. A retreat of 5 MPs followed by a normal march in the next turn would be nothing unusual, but a retreat of 8 should count against the next turn's movement.

I think not being able to receive a Movement Command during the chaotic and disorderly process of a retreat and pursuit makes a lot of sense. Often the HQ would not know which direction the retreating force had gone, so initially their mounted officers couldn't even find the pursuers to give them an order.